Carissa - Music Teacher or University Recruiter?

Carissa - Music Teacher or University Recruiter?

#1 - Carissa walks through her journey of delaying the start of university to find out what she really wanted. After an amazing university experience, two careers tugged at her heartstrings, but for very different reasons.  One path is a little wider now but the other certainly isn't closed.  Carissa shares what influenced her to pick the one that has helped her combine what she loves from both after balancing them separately for many years.

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The below transcript is A.I generated with light editing and may not be 100% accurate.

Transcript
Carissa:

Well, then I think I am very much the perfect person for this 100%

Jonathan Collaton:

that's exactly why you're here week one. So I thought originally, I would start these podcasts by explaining how I know my guest. But I am not vain enough to think that people are listening to this podcast for me, it's your name that's gonna be in the title and your friends and family probably that'll be listening to it. My family is only listening out of obligation. And so how about you tell everyone how it is that we know each other?

Carissa:

Well, we met...Okay, so I maybe you can fill this in for me. I don't actually remember the moment that we met but I think it was somewhere in first year at some point pretty early on. So we both went to university together and somewhere within our first year we came into contact through friends or something along those lines. But that's kind of common at our university is you know, of people are run into people and then you forget where you met and just kind of through osmosis and continuous interaction, absorb into this friendship. And I think that really happened for us. We volunteered for the Students Union, we became friends. But I think where our friendship changed after university and became closer was when we graduated and became each other's first adulting. Friends.

Jonathan Collaton:

I literally wrote that down. If you didn't see it, I was gonna say, so. Yes, you're 100%. Right. So we went to Wilfrid Laurier University. And we've talked about this before, we have no idea when exactly we met, we just figure it was probably because we were involved in the same things. But I can't pinpoint a moment or anything like that. But yeah, definitely when we became adult friends after university, because we were both trying to figure out how do we live in this crazy world and get a job and get our own apartments and learn to cook better food and stuff like that. So we had all those same things happening to us. At the same time, there was a point where I lived on your couch for a little bit when I was between apartments when I was looking at different jobs. And so so jobs, that's what we're going to we're going to talk about. Career Crossroads - the idea here is we're going to walk through from you being in high school, what you wanted to be up to where you are now and we'll see all the different twists and turns that have led you to be where you are now. So it's important we set the stage here. Think back, let's go back in time to you at 16 years old, you're in high school. What did you want to be when you were older?

Carissa:

Well.. so interesting enough, I had careers on my mind from a fairly young age. I still remember wanting to be a teacher as a little girl. My mom had bought me this chalkboard to put on the basement playroom. And I used to set up all of my stuffed animals and pretend that I was teaching the math, which was fun, and I loved it and then in but like getting into high school, then you start having those conversations more and you know, what am I going to do when I graduate high school. I remember seeing the Disney movie flipper and thinking that something along the lines of marine biology because I thought it would be so cool to get to work with marine animals which then I learned that maybe science wasn't my strongest suit, even though I thought it was really fascinating. It wasn't necessarily my best skill set. But it was interesting because when it actually came down to graduating and picking next steps, me in high school, I was the kid that I took everything I took. I took the cooking class, I took Family Studies I took back then I think it was discrete math. I took... Every high school must have totally programs programs, because everything you just said was not taught at my school. I guess we should clarify to you grew up in Waterloo, Ontario. Well, actually, no, no, didn't. Didn't, I explained all that, because that might impact wire you ended up going, I ended up I grew up most of my childhood was in Oakville, Ontario, closer to the GTA, and I'm still actually best friends with a lot of the people that I had met when I was really little there. And then move to Waterloo for grade eight and on so pretty much just before High School. So you know, you change groups of friends, you change your surroundings and and the things that you're familiar with can change as well. And so, you know, getting into high school, the the types of classes that were offered, I, I took the sciences and the mathematics because, you know, you kind of revert to some of the things you're familiar with or that you've already had interactions with.

Jonathan Collaton:

Right.

Carissa:

My mom was a nurse. When I was very little, she gave up her career to be a stay at home mom for us, which I'm very grateful for. But my cousins were nurses, I had a number of friends wanting to be nurses. I liked people, I liked helping people. So for me, I felt that made the most sense, because I was familiar with it. And I wasn't that strong at science, but I took all the classes that I was supposed to. But I still took things like music and drama and other classes that I really enjoyed. I was all over the place. I liked lots of things, whether I was good at it or not. And, and I remember my grade 12 year I just felt I had this whole like, Okay, I'm going to apply to be a nurse, I was going to apply to conasauga College in Ontario for their program. And I just didn't feel ready. I did not feel ready whatsoever. So that was me in grade 12. And I found at my church at the time had this like leadership program. It was kind of like Bible college, but it was more of a hands on and it was more of like working with different community groups and doing travel and and working with different churches are all over the place. And I thought I'm not ready yet. I would like to maybe get a little bit of a different experience. I'm going to do that instead first. And so I ended up doing that for two years two and a bit years.

Jonathan Collaton:

Like full time.

Carissa:

Yeah, full time.

Jonathan Collaton:

So what does that really entail? Because some of these programs like you go all around the world, some are local. What was yours like?

Carissa:

mine was primarily local. We did a lot in the States, though most of the staff were from the States. And so we did Eastern Canada, we went down into the states, many different places I Florida, California, Arizona, I was in we went all east coast. And I'm because I was musical. They put me in the band. So like doing church music, they put me into the church band with that. And that was actually where my love of music started to kind of come out. As I always was the kid was involved in music, I was always in the choirs, I was involved in my church music, even youth groups I did, I love to sing, but I was never a very strong singer. I never considered myself very musically gifted. I just really love to do it. And then, when I was in this program, I was giving private lessons to some of the other students because I'd grown up taking private lessons for a couple years of my life between piano and voice. And so I thought, hey, like they want to learn and I'm here and people have taught me I can teach them. And I really loved it. And that's what sparked the interest is go into music education.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, so now this program you were involved in was was it volunteer based? Or was it like a paid job? How did that work?

Carissa:

Um, the program that I was in, it was like signing up for it was like a school like it was it was a non accredited school. So it's similar to Bible college, but it was like this totally hands on version of things. And we, we, we did classes, but you know, you don't really get credits or like something along those lines. So it was a bit different. Yeah. But it really it helped me grow up a lot. I saw more of the world, I met really cool people, I got a chance to kind of learn a lot more about myself, I got to explore different interests, like music, and it gave me an opportunity to do that and develop some more skills that way. And that's what then made me realize, Hey, I actually really like music and I like kind of teaching music. And, and so I decided, Okay, I think I'm going to be a music teacher.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, so two years of that you said, at the end of two years, you want to be a music teacher. What's the next step? How do you what do you do to try and get you towards that goal?

Carissa:

Well, I realized that financially I was not in a place to go to school just yet and musically knowing some of the rigor of different music program. I was going to need to save up and work at my skill level. I had looked, I've been taking piano lessons with someone locally in Waterloo, and she was a graduate of the University of Waterloo, his music program. And so she kind of helped me prepare piano pieces and kind of gave me an introduction into what would be required. And I knew my skill level was definitely not there. I also started taking voice lessons through another local school and another voice teacher who also started to prepare me over the course of that year, I started taking theory lessons, because looking at the requirements of those programs, I had done some of that conservatory style of music, but not to the same level, I had never sung opera, or classical music a day in my life, I was 100%, the pop singer, that was my style. But the programs didn't really have or that I was aware of didn't have a lot of options. So for that reason, I knew that I was going to need a year to save up to work on my skills and practice. And so I worked in retail at the beginning. And then I worked for a manufacturer I think I started you know, minimum wage and retail and I was so proud when I was making a couple cents more than retail myself. And, you know, I got promoted to this next level. And I actually really enjoyed it. Because I think working in customer service or in retail, you learn you learn how to work with people, you learn how to provide customer service. That's such an important skill, right? Working in manufacturing. I did everything from that year, like I dumped my job title as the students because I was just working my way through I worked for admin support for project managers and I worked on research projects for the purchasing teams and I swept floors and I water plants and I worked in the manufacturing side of the building.

Jonathan Collaton:

So you were just doing the job because you needed a job and you needed money. And yeah, it was what they were offering you.

Carissa:

You got it.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, and so so you do that for you said a year or so and you saved up money. And then what happens next.

Carissa:

So during that year, I applied to university and I have to say I was not in high school does have the same kinds of supports that my friends would have had when they were applying from high school. I didn't have a guidance counselor to walk me through what the process was, I had to kind of figure it out. Mm hmm. And I 100% made some mistakes along the way. You know, I didn't know what an official transcript versus an unofficial transcript wise so I had to call and find out and, you know, everything was sent in the mail and I almost missed the opportunity to audition at Wilfrid Laurier University. I don't know why I missed the mail, but I missed the package of mail and had you know, shoved it somewhere in my you know, stack and

Jonathan Collaton:

that's my nightmare. I lived it right I got an interview one time for a job and I went to my junk mail. And by the time it was too late, they wouldn't interview me. So I feel the anxiety you must have felt

Carissa:

Well, I had gotten I don't know why but I had all the other stuff from the other school that I'd applied and for Wilfrid Laurier I don't know why, but for whatever reason, it just went off my radar. I didn't see it. I don't I don't know. But I remember feeling that exact anxiety, total panic. Because I realized that the numbers of audition days that it said in the letter, were winding down. Oh, I didn't know if I was gonna get one. I called the next morning and the woman in the office administrative office at the Faculty of music said, we have one voice audition spot left, I can't even guarantee you that you're going to get it because you have to put down a deposit. So if you can get here and give me the deposit, I can then secure it for you. And I got the last voice audition spot that year.

Jonathan Collaton:

Did you get a ticket on the way to go deliver the deposit?

Carissa:

I know I think I was in such a state of panic. Just I got there as fast as I could as safely as safely as I could. And I got it there and she says you're here you got it your names on it you. So what was good was I had already been working through lessons and working with people to prepare for auditions. But I did I got the spot. And going through the auditions at different schools. It was an nerve wracking experience because I actually am despite being a musician, I love being a musician. I do have performance anxieties, a lot of times I get very nervous to perform

Jonathan Collaton:

kind of kind of like the panic that you saw before we started recording this when thnigs weren't working them. The grip wouldn't work on the mic stand my elastic broken hold the mic. So yeah, I've experienced that before.I get it.

Carissa:

I have that panic though in front of you know, like 110 people.

Jonathan Collaton:

So mines in an empty boardroom view. So different experiences. Yeah.

Carissa:

But it's that same kind of feeling of nervousness. And so this was kind of my first foray at this, you know, level of music and this style of music was so new to me. I'd only been learning it for so long. And so I completed both auditions and I, you know, each school had their different feelings and when I talk to students now about where they should go, it's about finding Write for who you are. And that audition was kind of unique. That's why the cool thing about being a music student is you get a really personal experience before you choose your school. auditions are very personal. You meet a lot of people really quickly, you have one on one conversations with professors, you meet a lot of staff, you get to see the buildings in and out in a way that is sometimes different than open houses. Possibly anyways.

Jonathan Collaton:

You wouldn't know anything about open house,

Carissa:

no, nothing. But it was a really cool. It was a really cool experience to get to get to know the school because I didn't go to open houses as an applicant. I didn't take tours. I

Jonathan Collaton:

Why, what what what reason, I guess, did you not do that? Because I mean, I know you said it was a different experience not applying right out of high school. But yeah, that is, like I'd never even contemplated that somebody wouldn't go to a university, especially if they were local, like you had the ability to drive somewhere and check it out. But you didn't do that. Why?

Carissa:

That is a really good question. And you know, there are probably local students who would relate to me for this. Because I was local. I assumed I knew and understood the school. Hmm. So you just thought like universities or universities, and I'll go to one or the other. So that local one wouldn't be different if I saw it. And another one more along the lines of I did do a tour of the other school that was out of town. Oh, but I didn't do the one locally because I was like, Oh, well, it's local. And I, like I know of the school already. So what would I hear or see or experience that would be different than what I've come to understand being local? And I

Jonathan Collaton:

looking back on that, how ridiculous was

Carissa:

Oh, my goodness. Like I said, the audition process that? really was so key. Because I think I possibly could have missed out. And and I'm so glad I ended up where I did it. Because I did get to have a personal experience. But I encourage anybody go to open houses, oh, we're going to take tours talk to people it's it really is. It really is the only way or in Wow. Okay. It is one of the very good ways that you can go and experience because I always say to students, you are not just paying for an education, you're paying for the experience of the school that it's going to become your home.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yes

Carissa:

for the next four years. And you would never buy a house based on pictures online and talking to a couple neighbours

Jonathan Collaton:

Well maybe in this housing market.

Carissa:

Okay, that's, that's valid.

Jonathan Collaton:

Not that I would ever tell them when they should do that. But I'm sure there are people doing, possibly, and I blame HGTV for that. Too m any shows about people flipping houses buying them sight unseen. That's where all this comes from.

Carissa:

I should start watching that channel more, I have to say. But yeah, that's so that's honestly what I would say I the that feeling you get when you walk in for the first time. Is that sense? Does this feel like home? Can you see yourself living here, not part of the experience the package? So I got that sense. When I auditioned at all the schools, I figured out what could feel like home for me. And ultimately, for me, the right choice was Wilfrid Laurier University. And it was an awesome experience. And because even some of the people that I had, as professors were part of my audition process, so I already had familiar faces, to go in and talk to you as a student, which was really awesome.

Jonathan Collaton:

So your your at Laurier, and what were the things that happened to you there that influenced what you ended up doing after that? Was it just the the success of the music program that led you to continue on that path? Or were there things outside of that, that impacted decisions you made?

Carissa:

Well, so for some students, they may come into university saying, I like this topic, I'm going to see what my options are, or I think I'm going to be this I'm going to study something that is going to support me in that pathway. And I might change my mind. I was not one of those students. The reason being, I had already done the I'm going to try this to just give myself and I'd already done some kind of what we would now understand more as like gap year type programming or experiences in my life, I'd already worked I had, you know, tried some different things that gave me a much more better direction for a career. And I thought, okay, I am coming here with the sole purpose of becoming a music teacher. And that did waver every now and again, you know, I thought maybe I could be a performer one day or you know, checked out a few different options for sure. And even the age divisions changed. I wanted to be a high school music teacher when I did come in. And then you know, I realized, I through a couple different volunteer placements that I had through one of the student clubs with the faculty of music, I got to work with a high school classroom. And then I also got to work with an elementary class and I was like, oh, okay, my personality and my creativity works best with the little kids. I really love high school students, and I love the music classroom and the content, but my level of creativity and the fact that I love to dance to Katy Perry and get the kids really excited that really came with little kids and in those primary grades. So I realized through hands on and experiential opportunities. Yeah, I, yeah, I got a chance. But I had time to kind of change my mind and try those different things out before I went to teachers college and committed to an age division.

Jonathan Collaton:

And so like, those are small things. These aren't these big watershed moments that totally changed your career path. These were these kind of tweaked what you thought you wanted to do.

Carissa:

Yeah, more hands on gives you more clarity. So more opportunity gave me more clarity. And I really liked that it. What was nice is that I just changed some of the music education classes to be more geared towards the elementary sector before I graduated and affirmed it more for me, which was really awesome. And then I graduated, and I did take an extra year, I did take an extra year there to graduate.

Jonathan Collaton:

So that's probably why we became adult friend yeah.

Carissa:

Yes, we did.

Jonathan Collaton:

So you take that extra year, and then you're coming up towards the end of university. And what was the plan for like, you're done in April? What's what happens may 1, was it kind of an extended plan with grad school or teachers college right away? Or was that further down the line? Were you just going to work first? What was the plan?

Carissa:

I remember the application time coming up for Teachers College, and I just didn't feel ready. I don't know whether it was because I was tired. Whether it was because I was maybe a little unsure of myself, maybe because my bank account was like, please, I don't know. I don't know.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah, finances play a pretty big role in choosing what to do after university.

Carissa:

Yep. But I remember my my dad saying to me, he said, trust your uncertainty. Sometimes it might be giving you warning signals to say, hey, and he said, and it's okay, if you don't do things right away. Mm hmm. So I took a year off and I worked and I got a job working as an administrative position in a mailroom. But then that one was a cut short contract. So I quickly switched. And I happened to find this really cool job working for a nonprofit organization, in education in recruitment, called Shad, and it was awesome. I had so much fun working for them. It was a really cool experience, because I got to travel. And I got to talk to students about summer program. And I worked based out of Waterloo, I got to work in the sciences. And then in the summertime, they needed someone to work with one of their programs. And so I got to go and work at the at Queens and spend a summer there working with students. I learned a lot through that year. And I had some really cool experiences that helped kind of shape some of where I've actually my career is now.

Jonathan Collaton:

So okay, so you did how long at Shad?

Carissa:

I was there for just under a year or maybe 9-10 months. 9-10 months.

Jonathan Collaton:

Gotcha. And then was that like the end of a contract so you just moved on to the next thing?

Carissa:

Well, I applied then and I got into teachers.

Jonathan Collaton:

Oh, that's when that started

Carissa:

Yeah, that's right.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay. And so Teachers College, where'd you do that?

Carissa:

I did that...

Jonathan Collaton:

I mean, I know but tell the people listening to this.

Carissa:

I did that at Laurier as well. It was the one year program at the time. It's now two. And I did the junior intermediate program for music and education. And I loved teaching, it really was a great experience. I learned some incredibly valuable skills that I remember thinking, wow, the things that I am learning are valuable, I think for a variety of careers. But my intention was always to be a teacher. And at the time that I was graduating and looking to apply the job market for education, public sector, like teachers, and that's not great.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yes, that was the time where everybody wanted to be a teacher. And so there was a lot of you all at the same time.

Carissa:

It was it was um,

Jonathan Collaton:

was that an Ontario specific thing, though?

Carissa:

That's a good question. I don't know. Actually, if I'm being totally honest, I don't know.

Jonathan Collaton:

Um, I seem to remember maybe friends at the time. Once they went to teachers college here, they would either go east or west, like Manitoba. And there were jobs there. I think for them.

Carissa:

I had friends that went to England, there was a lot of opportunity to teach in the UK at the time. Teaching English abroad is also very, popular.

Jonathan Collaton:

very popular. Yeah.

Carissa:

So students were kind of taking opportunities to expand their teaching horizons and you know, try and build different experiences and then maybe come back and work within a board. I I remember thinking, you know what I want I'm willing to ride out the challenges of the job market at the time because I was passionate to teach music and I really loved music and you know, after spending five years studying it, and I still loved it, which was a really good sign. And so I was very excited to teach and at the time, boards, local boards Anyways, we're not opening up until about November, but I was done school in April.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, so So there's some time there.

Carissa:

Yep. So some people took time so some people got on two different emergency supply boards. Some people took summer camp jobs. Some people took additional qualification courses to increase their employability and their their different backgrounds to support classrooms. I found I wanted to apply for the recruiter job at so Wilfrid Laurier hires recruitment officers who travel around Ontario talking to high school students about preparing to go to university, I was a Campus Ambassador, as a student, I gave tours talk to high school students about coming to Laurie a. I had done that four shot and traveled and presented and worked with high school students preparing for a summer program. And I loved it. And I thought it the contract ends, end of November boards open up in November. This looks like really good timing for me. I'm just gonna try and see what happens. So I applied for the job. And I got it. I was pretty excited.

Jonathan Collaton:

And you know what, don't worry, I'm not bitter because I also applied didn't get the job.

Carissa:

Did you?

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah, but maybe not the year you did might have been a different year. Don't worry, I've let go of all my resentment towards you over the years.

Carissa:

If we didn't even apply in the same year, then Okay,

Jonathan Collaton:

well, I might have I don't remember to be honest. It could have been that year.

Carissa:

I didn't know that.

Jonathan Collaton:

There were there have been a lot of unsuccessful job applications over the years

Carissa:

I have. So the time that I got that job, that was actually the second time I applied for that job.

Jonathan Collaton:

So neither of us got it the first year out of university. There you go. I feel a lot better now.

Carissa:

But having the recruitment experience from a previous comedy kind of showed me some of the skills that I need to work on to be better for it. And I and then therefore I think that really helped me and and when I did it, and I got the job, they actually had like a little admin, they just needed like an admin contract to support them early on in the summer. So I actually ended up finishing school and going right to working for their office as just support admin until the contract started beginning of August. So I didn't even end up getting a break.

Jonathan Collaton:

a perfect transition, though, too. Because really, you don't want a lot of time off. If your job is to - well, I guess at that point, I don't know was your objective to just like save money. Or if you were looking for full time work after that. It wasn't. It's not like you were going back to school then. So you didn't need to just-although money is nice all the time. It's not like they're you were trying to save up a big lump sum for school again,

Carissa:

yeah, if this, I knew I was going into my career.

Jonathan Collaton:

The first time you've used that word, this is perfect.

Carissa:

Because that's the thing is I was I was done school, and I had done my professional degree. And I was ready to move into the career that I've been planning for for years,

Jonathan Collaton:

So the target was in front of you.

Carissa:

Yep. And I knew that it was going to take a number of steps to get there, I knew that it wasn't going to all come right away. I knew it was going to take a lot of work and a number of years to build. I'd had heard of teachers and friends who'd waited seven years before they got a permanent contract, depending on the age division and the subject, etc. So I knew that it was going to take me a long time to build the teaching career. And I was okay with that. And I thought this is a perfect transition job. Maybe I could have used a week off I don't know. But you know, I went into it. And I took it as an opportunity. I've always really liked admin and office life always enjoyed it. That was one of my favorite parts in the manufacturing job. I love being in the office working for shad, I had a great time and found myself quite good at it. So I thought this is a good opportunity for me to get to know the team in advance. This is kind of cool. Yeah. And then so I mean, I stuffed envelopes, I sorted files, I answered emails and phone calls, I did whatever they asked me to do. And then my contract started as a recruiter, and we jumped into recruitment training. And that was a very big experience because I remember thinking, I remember actually being like, Oh my goodness, this is crazy. Because there was a lot of knowledge coming at me to learn basically in this training program, the whole university, top to bottom, every campus every program every service and then on top of that we're developing our presentation skills and our communication skills with a variety of customers essentially, you know, we might talk to parents, guidance counselor students of different ages and all different backgrounds and so we were going through that skill development piece as well. I remember feeling very overwhelmed by the process at first because I thought my background should have made me better at it. But I remember thinking it but then I kind of got the advice you're doing something new give yourself like the musician and he was like have to be really good right away all the time.

Jonathan Collaton:

Because it's like a performance.

Carissa:

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But then I kind of eased up on that and remember that I was learning and we all take our strides in different times and I finally settled into mine and it all got really good and I the presentation skills that I learned. I am so grateful for so grateful for My ability to read people to know how to adjust conversations to help people to the types of questions, I learned how to ask to engage in good and meaningful conversation, to just be able to provide personalized support, and help students make sense of their interests and their ideas in terms of their education in their careers. It became like problemsolving for me, it was so much fun. I had I did my first month four month contract, and it I had a blast. I really did. I am such an extrovert. I told you this earlier, you know, probably why we're friends. Yeah. So for me, you don't spell extrovert with an O you spell extrovert with an A because I'm extra extroverted. So this was the kind of job for me being around 700 people in a day doesn't faze me. I get excited and energized by being around people. And I care about people and love connecting so much.

Jonathan Collaton:

Has that ever faded over time? Because when I realized what I just said, makes it sound like I'm like, I prefer to hang out with extroverts. That's not the case. I just because I think I'm such an extrovert in that same way. But I feel like maybe over time, it's faded a little bit. And I definitely need more like, Okay, everyone leaves me alone now. I need to be on my own. So I can just recharge so I can go do all that stuff that I want to do with other people around.

Carissa:

I've ebbed and flowed in that I think I think by year five of recruitments have been being around lots of people all the time, all day long. You know, I began to appreciate alone time, so much more. So I'm actually grateful for the job for that it taught me how to really appreciate downtime, sometimes being stuck in downtown Toronto traffic, jam and rocking up to Disney or listening to a comedian. And just having that, like, quiet brain time, helped me refuel a little bit. And I appreciate that so much more than I think I did. And now being out of that high high level of extroverted type job has changed where I'd crave that again, almost a little bit.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, um, so let's not skip ahead to too much there sounds like there's five years of recruitment. And there's probably some other stuff that happened during that time as well.

Carissa:

Definitely.

Jonathan Collaton:

So you're doing it you do your form of recruitment, and you practice all these presentation skills, communication skills. November, that contract is up, right? It was a four month contract. So when that's done, what then?

Carissa:

So my boss at the time was fabulous. I got I got an interview for the board the local board, and it conflicted with my schedule. That week, I was actually supposed to be in Sudbury traveling and working with high school students. And one of the other recruiters at the time who had a schedule that would allow me to do the teacher interview offered to switch with me until I did my job interview for the board to be put onto the occasional teacher's board. And on the day that I found out that I got hired as an occasional teacher. I also got an interview for the year long extended contract as the senior recruiter, I got an interview for that. Hmm. So they recruitment .

Jonathan Collaton:

These are the best stories, by the way, the day where like, you make one choice or another. That's kind of I'm going to talk about in my introductory episode when I record that, but like, that's how I ended up deciding on career crossroads, because there was a moment for me where it was like, do this or that, where would I be now? So okay, what happened? What did you do?

Carissa:

Well, so the way that it works is you do a four month contract, but there are three senior recruiters who work the full year and do that for three years. Mm hmm. It was a one year renewal contract up to three. And there's a whole back end of recruitment from December through until July in the office, working with friendly communications and all and various events and projects. And I really loved my job. And I really, really loved being a recruiter. So I had applied for the job. And on the day that I got the the interview, and I had my interview was the day that I also found that I got hired to the board. And I remember walking into that interview, and I went through the whole thing. And the very last question is, do you have anything else you'd like to ask us? Or maybe tell us and these were people I'd already been working with? As recruiters, they know me well. And I said, Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. I got hired today as a teacher, and they're, they were so excited for me. And I said, You know, I, from your position, I can, I can assume you would really appreciate knowing that because I'm applying to this job. You know, I still want to also be a teacher. And I think that because I know it's going to take quite a while to really build up the classroom opportunity. I know this contracts only up to three years. Maybe I can do this one and then work my way into that. And so I said I kind of explained the rules. Around occasional teachers and how often I could leave to go do that and then come back. And with vacation hours, I could take those vacation hours and book a couple days off, go teach and come back and make it work. And so I kind of laid out how I would be able to simultaneously do that have both jobs. And I explained it. And I said to them, I said, I completely understand if you don't think this is feasible. But I wanted to make sure that I told you, and respect your decision from here. And they decided to hire me. And I was very grateful. And then that so this was in December, beginning of December, I got the job. And so I started. And then in January, a principal called me and said, I have a small, very small part time, classroom music teacher job that I would like to offer you. And because it's so small, we don't have anyone on the board right now, who is a music teacher who's available. You're the only one, we really need a music teacher for this. It's only for a couple weeks, do you think you can make it work? So I said, Okay,

Jonathan Collaton:

so you're gonna try and do both?

Carissa:

I asked my boss, I said, this is how this would work. It's only for this long can I do this? And at the time, he was like, Yeah, I think we can make that work.

Jonathan Collaton:

That's this is great, because it's, you earned the opportunity to do both. And and then they they actually, instead of just saying it, it could happen when it did become an option. They let it happen.

Carissa:

Yeah. And I have to say, I'm really grateful for that. They had no obligation to me whatsoever to allow me to take this teaching contract and or this, this small, little ltot. And I am really grateful for that opportunity. Really, I loved teaching it was it was what I wanted to do for my career and just even get to do this little extra would give me that piece of experience that would help me continue to build my career maybe quicker than I thought or I didn't know, but I I was so excited. I taught a very small, I only taught a for an hour a day for four days a week. That's all it was.

Jonathan Collaton:

What was the age bracket?

Carissa:

It was Elementary. So I taught. I taught Elementary, I think I did I think was grade three to grade six.

Jonathan Collaton:

And that's what you wanted. Yeah, that's perfectly.

Carissa:

I still had about 100 students. And that because music is rotation, right? And I got really creative. I had even had an after school choir. At one point, it was really fun. I really sucked myself into it. And the six weeks ended up, the teacher ended up not coming back. And so it just kind of kept rolling. And I actually ended up completing the whole semester, doing this simultaneously doing both jobs.

Jonathan Collaton:

Did that like...what was the... and the timing with that did you just shift your recruiter job hours to accommodate for the teaching job?

Carissa:

Basically, I took my lunch and went and taught and then came back and just bookended any of the extra time that I needed to

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah. And so how many hours a week would you say you were working at that?

Carissa:

I have to admit by the end of it, because it when it came down to final assignments and report cards and planning lessons beyond six weeks, and all the end marking assignments and all these other things. It did become a lot of work. I know I'm not even sure I want to, I think I think I made it was almost feeling like I was working two full time jobs at some point. But I was loving what I was doing on both ends, right? That's the thing. I love my students. I love teaching music, I loved being creative. And then I also loved working for the office and being in the business environment. And so I was kind of living the best of both worlds. It was stressful. And, you know, I used to just do a lot of my planning on the weekends, and I was good for the week. But then the quantity of planning and assessment became more than that. So I was usually working most evenings as well. But I was making games, you know, classroom and I was coming I was being really creative, and I thrive and creativity. So for me, you know, as much as Yes, it was work. It was creative work, which I really love. So it was very hard. But at the same time when you love what you do,

Jonathan Collaton:

you never work a day in your life.

Carissa:

Something along those lines, yes.

Jonathan Collaton:

Or every day. Yeah, one of the two.

Carissa:

Yeah, So you know, I did, I did that. And I finished out the school year with the school. It was great. I had a really good time I learned so much about myself as a teacher, I learned so much about what it means to be a teacher with a classroom and students of all different things through a variety of experiences. And I made some really wonderful connections. Yeah, and then that was done. And then you know, when it came time to for more teaching jobs because I was still a recruiter. I couldn't. I wasn't really applying to more teaching jobs that was kind of a one off opportunity. And I was back down to being an occasional teacher friends would call me who were music teachers locally, I need a music teacher or jobs would come up and I would apply for them and take the odd day or half day here or there.

Jonathan Collaton:

So that was a choice, though that you made was either recruiter full time and teacher part time or go full force teacher full time.

Carissa:

It there was a point where that came in about a year and a half later. So there was some reorganization that was happening within the recruitment department. And they decided to create a permanent position in recruitment, one recruitment coordinator.

Jonathan Collaton:

And this is the music department at the University?

Carissa:

whole university.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay. Yes.

Carissa:

So I, I was, I was interested in doing that job. And then there were also a couple of different teacher music contracts that were coming up. And around the same time, again, this is one of those things where things are starting to really overlap, right. And I remember thinking, I remember sitting in my friend's my friend's kitchen, and I was kind of having a bit of like, a, I don't know what to do moment and tears running down my face. And he looked at me and he said, Okay, why are you afraid to let go of the teaching opportunity? And I said, because I'm scared to disappoint people. I know, this is what I always wanted to do. This is what I was working towards. And he said, Okay, well, why? Why are you afraid to let go of the recruitment job? And I said, because I really love what I'm doing. And he said, Well, you don't take a job because you want to, you know, you want to please people, you take a job because you love what you're doing. And he said, and if it's still working for you to be able to do both in a certain way, then follow what it is that you really want to be doing right now. And I was like, Yeah, actually, that's a really good point. I'm really loving what I'm doing and recruitment. It's a perfect blend of education and business. I've always enjoyed business and Office Administration. And I'm also working in education and working in schools and working with students and teaching them about really cool pathways. And so I even though it wasn't necessarily specifically music focused, I had the opportunity to be doing education from a more of an administrative perspective, and I was loving it.

Jonathan Collaton:

And you can still keep the part time and occasional stuff on the side.

Carissa:

you got it.

Jonathan Collaton:

So if I, at first I was thinking it's like a choice between the heart what the heart wants, what the head wants, but not really, because from a purely career, progression, financial from that standpoint, keeping the full time job and still teaching on the side. Really makes sense. Like looking back on it, would you say that was the clear decision?

Carissa:

It was more along the lines of where in the moment I was want, where I...

Jonathan Collaton:

see cuz I'm an outsider, so I'm looking at it is like, well looking back

Carissa:

That's a good question.

Jonathan Collaton:

It seems like, clearly that was the right choice. Like if you had just if you would have maybe quit your recruitment job to go teach.

Carissa:

Yes, that's right.

Jonathan Collaton:

You would have

Carissa:

I would have

Jonathan Collaton:

Bar none.

Carissa:

Hundred percent,

Jonathan Collaton:

Then it's you're committed to teaching at that point.

Carissa:

That's right. And I? And, yes, very much so. And I think that I either wasn't quite ready for that yet. Or I had found this other career path that maybe encompassed a few other passions. I maybe didn't realize I had until I had done it. And, and I so I decided to stay with the recruitment piece. And I applied for the one position that was the permanent position, and I got it. And I am so grateful for that opportunity. And because I still did do occasional teaching jobs, I still supply taught for a little while. And so for myself, it really became the next step up for me in terms of responsibilities and levels of projects. There was more travel involved. It was there was a conference, I got to host that year, I got to work with people across the province. I was kind of in my element that way in terms of of those aspects, it was a tough year, because it was a whole new job that the office had never had before. So I got to build that position, which was really cool. Yeah, it was a lot of a lot of creative thinking, a lot of brainstorming lots of ideas.

Jonathan Collaton:

And as you said, like it was a progression for you. It wasn't like you were just doing the same thing. It allows you a lot of more freedom. And it sounds like creativity is what you liked in the teaching job. And this allowed that to

Carissa:

you got it. So I got I've, I had more responsibility. I had more leadership. And I got to build some things, which was really cool. And I learned so much from that year. I think as a career person. I learned a lot more about myself my skill levels, I learned a lot about problem solving, creative thinking in a business environment. All pulling on different features from different jobs and different incidences that kind of culminated to what I was doing in this role. And it was it was a long first year because that also was the year that I decided to start my master's degree.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yay, more school.

Carissa:

So at the time, I was working two part time jobs. I was teaching private lessons to students. I was a supply teaching. I was working full time for the university and a travel position and then I decided to apply to do my master's degree. Because I missed music. I missed musicians.

Jonathan Collaton:

I have all these different things pulling out all the time, don't you?

Carissa:

All the time. I mean, think to me back in high school, I was the kid who took all the classes, right, I liked all the things I missed being a musician I missed. I missed being part of that community sense, I miss sharing music with others. You know, I always kind of joke being a music student is kind of like living in a Spotify playlist on shuffle a totally random one all the time, because to a to b, music is always playing, and you're surrounded by musicians all the time. And if you're a music kid, you kind of grown up that way, you're always around musicians. And then when you graduate, if you don't go into a music specific job, you have to create your own sense of music and community. And I hadn't really taken active steps to do that, at that point beyond teaching, so I was really missing it. And Laurie has a Master's of Arts and community music. So it's Community Development using music. And I really liked it because it was a broad spectrum program, you take an entrepreneurship course leadership and facilitation course you look at equity and diversity in communities and cultures, you look at multi, multi art and interdisciplinary art projects, you learn all these really cool skills from all these different types of topics. And I kind of liked that. And I liked that I had lots of wiggle room to ask questions and try cool new things and be with musicians. Again, I have all different backgrounds and styles. So that really, really kind of spoke to my heart. And so I started that too.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah, so just juggling a few things.

Carissa:

Yeah, I was a little busy.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, so so that starts in what September? Was it a September start program?

Carissa:

That's right.

Jonathan Collaton:

And so you're like, right, when recruitments getting very busy for the next year? When is the so in Ontario, we have the Ontario University fair, which is what end of September always?

Carissa:

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah. So great timing, obviously, to start a master's program.

Carissa:

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

And then no teaching would start right then to if you were getting any contracts.

Carissa:

So that was the interesting thing. Because I was an occasional teacher, I just closed my calendar for the fall term, because I knew I was going to be on the road and not available. So I made myself unavailable, so that no one would accidentally book me or along those lines, because I can, you know, I can leave my calendar open for certain days, or I could pick the certain days, depending on if I had been in contact with someone who needed me for a certain supply job.

Jonathan Collaton:

That sounds like a very flexible job like that did not realize that's how it worked for teachers in Ontario, it depends on the board.

Carissa:

Yeah, depends on the board. And you know, do things do change every now and again. But at that time, because I was one of the few music supply teachers, music teachers, none of them were my friends would say you you teach music, would you mind taking a half day for me, and because I loved half days, half days, were great for me, because I could go back to the office or, you know, take the day off, I had booked it as a vacation day. So it was it worked out very well, for a little while. But then by the end of that year, so And actually, I would say even for another year, I got to the point where the job market for teachers started to change. And maybe not contracts wise, I wasn't sure at that level, or even ltot wise, it was the supply or the occasional teachers list. They just didn't always have enough for how many jobs were happening. And it came to a point where I realized I could keep continuing, I had the place there. But I knew that I wasn't working to my full capacity as as an occasional teacher. And my heart was so in recruitment. And I decided to make the I decided that it was time to resign from the board. Because I knew that if I let go, they could hire someone who was going to give everything that they had Mm hmm. And I felt that that was time, I felt that it was time I was planning my next step still, in a university and post secondary environment, I was seeing how my career was going to keep building within that sector. And I knew that that was where my heart really was. And I mean, this is all to say I did love teaching. And I do love teaching because I still have elements of that in my life now just in a different capacity when I didn't know existed before I got the job that I have. And I respect so much what teachers do and how that classroom environment works. And I and you know, I still maintain my professional designation. And I did resign as I did choose to resign. So I've always said you know, if that door were to open up and it was so clear that that's where I was supposed to go again, I have the opportunity I would love that opportunity if I knew it was the right thing, but for right now I just knew the right thing for me to do was to respectfully resigned from the board to focus in on the career that I had in front of me because I was loving it and just knew that that's a lot where my passion lies. And I will say this like just because you love a job or just because you're super passionate about it doesn't mean it's perfect. By no means you're gonna have good days you're gonna have bad days for sure projects are gonna work really well. Some projects don't work all that well. Yes, definitely you're gonna have ebbs and flows. But overall, I knew where my heart was sitting. And I knew that it was time also, because I was the kid in a master's degree and working so many part time jobs and a full time job, it was time to start whittling down and focusing on the thing, right? It to build this as my life to build a career as life.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah. So there's a great line Ron Swanson has from Parks and Rec. where he says, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. That's the decision that you made to go recruitment and the master's program and let somebody else have that teaching opportunity.

Carissa:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So um, and I mean, I resigned actually, at the time when they had the occasional teaching job posting open so that, you know, maybe they I, in my hope, without totally knowing how it all works, that they would have maybe more accurate numbers of how many they could hire or however that works. I just thought the timing worked out

Jonathan Collaton:

That's the good version of ignorance is bliss, like, it can only be a good outcome, or the same outcome as there already is. So

Carissa:

yeah, yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

Okay, so you make that call, and you now decide, it's it's the music job, and it's the program. And where do you go from there?

Carissa:

Well, I took the master's degree, because I really wanted the opportunity while I was working there to take this program, because the program is outlawry. I was working at Laurie. So it, it was not I would leave the office and go to class kind of thing. It's probably worth pointing out to people, there is a subsidy. When you work at the university, you're taking a program. And so it's not like you had to worry about the entire full cost of a program. That's right. And there and I mean, I will say this, there were other master's degree programs that I was looking at at other schools at the time, but I think what the drew what the draw for me was because I was kind of debating between do I do a Master's of education? Do I do a master's degree in another topic? Because I wanted to take the opportunity where I I'm not married at the time, I don't have children. You know, yes, I'm in a travel job. But, you know, maybe this is my chance just to kind of get another another opportunity to increase my education level that will maybe open more doors down the road, I wasn't really sure. I just decided to maybe take advantage of the time that I had. And working for the university. You know, and I and I realized, like, because I had the Bachelor of Education already, the masters of education is a great is a great next step. I think I just for myself needed that music element to it. Because I love being a musician.

Jonathan Collaton:

Yeah. Which was clear from everything you've said so far, that always had to be a component of what you were doing.

Carissa:

Absolutely. So the cool thing was that I got to do this degree, I still got classes that taught me even that really relate to education that related to business. It was so broad topic, I loved that. And then I finished and now so I graduated from that last year. I remember thinking I'm like, Oh my goodness, I am officially done school where I can watch Netflix guilt free.

Jonathan Collaton:

What an amazing world we live in, right? You can just watch as much as you want. And no one will judge you. But Netflix when it says are you still there? No one else will know.

Carissa:

That is exactly it. So yeah, so I was down to one job. And I was working it full time. And then around that time, we had kind of touched on this a little bit earlier about the whole idea of you know, being extroverted a lot and you know, how much does it take a toll on you after a while when you're working in a travel job? You know, a lot of people I remembered my I was one of those people that I Byard it. I think this is so cool. And I will say I love I love to travel. I mean, this is what you and I bond over so much is how we both love to travel internationally and

Jonathan Collaton:

And 2020s just kicking the crap out of us right now.

Carissa:

I very much Miss Miss Miss planes.

Jonathan Collaton:

I miss anything that I can't get to in just a car.

Carissa:

Yep, Mm hmm. Um, so I know that the travel was quite extensive. And when you're doing it by yourself, and you are doing it for work, the kind of volume of travel I was doing, you know, I did it for five and almost six years, it can be a lot, and it can take its toll on you. I mean, my ability to commit to volunteering opportunities was always pumping. Seeing friends, even half my friends knew not to talk to me till December, from like August till December, because you probably wouldn't be able to get a hold of me.

Jonathan Collaton:

Well it would be like random weekends, or a day where you would be available, but we would never know far enough in advance to plan for that.

Carissa:

Exactly. 100%.

Jonathan Collaton:

And something that I'm kind of realizing for the first time as you're saying this is I've always thought like a travel job would be amazing, because I love travel. But as you've as you're pointing out, it's it's not for fun it's work. And so it's, you know, as much as you might want to think like, oh, when I'm done this, I'll go and visit here, but like, Well, you've got to do that work tomorrow, too. So you're kind of hamstrung by time and it's not definitely not as free as when you just say like, I'm leaving for three weeks, and I will come back and I can do everything I want in the 21 days between then and now. It's not the same.

Carissa:

No. And that actually brings up a really interesting point as well. People ask me like you are such a musician at heart, you love to do music would you not want to make that your job? No, I love music. I love music. I'm passionate about music. But I've also seen what it means to make music your career. And I realized that I have a different passion for music than I do for career and I, I am really enjoying the separations, maybe one day down the road, they'll merge again. But for now, Music is my hobby, passion, it's my volunteer time, it's the thing I connect with my friends, or at church, or whatever it is, it's all my within my own spectrum of choice. Whereas with when you make a passionate career, it can change how you feel about that passion.

Jonathan Collaton:

Right.

Carissa:

And so for five and six years, my passion for travel and passion for travel, both work and for personal, you know, worked simultaneously. But then you finally get to a point where you say, Okay, I'm kind of tired. And living hotel, the hotel is only Oh, so fun. And, you know, driving rental cars all the time, and never knowing what city I'm going to be in next week, or, you know, being all over the place or missing things because you're not going to be home for that, you know, you just get to a point you make those I made the sacrifices totally willingly loving my career loving what I was doing, but..

Jonathan Collaton:

I'm pretty sure everything you just said are the lyrics to a song from gym class hero where they're like, I don't know what city I was in each day. You sound like a musician? Are you would you understand exactly what that would be like?

Carissa:

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

So I guess the experience taught you all that.

Carissa:

Yeah, it was? Yeah, actually, that's kind of interesting. What I think I had never thought about like that.

Jonathan Collaton:

You know? And I think for me, I like to use what you're saying right now. That's my new justification for why I'm not playing in the NHL, because I think the travel the hotels would just get to me.

Carissa:

One hundred percent.

Jonathan Collaton:

And you know, as great as it would be to be a professional hockey player winning the Stanley Cup for the Leafs.

Carissa:

Oh, yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

It just might be a little much, you know, the travel, hotels.

Carissa:

Maybe you're the key they've been missing this whole time.

Jonathan Collaton:

Oh, don't tell me that. Now I feel bad. I mean, I stopped playing hopefully get like 15. So I really don't think so. But I like to dream.

Carissa:

Of course. Oh, yes. One day, I'll be famous of your famous musician one day. But yeah, so you know, the time to change that up and be able to be involved in my community and make new friends and try new things really became a bigger desire. And so last year, and the job that I'm currently actually doing is a position directly back with the faculty of music. So I used to work for general recruitment, I'm working just for the faculty music, recovering a maternity leave. And it's I kind of said, it's kind of like coming home within home. So, you know, the faculty and the staff are very familiar to me. The funny thing is half of the staff that that work in the faculty, now we're all we were all students at the same time, which is kind of like very

Jonathan Collaton:

There's these cohorts of students who work at universities will all end up working at the university together.

Carissa:

So it's been a really cool thing. And what's really neat is yet it's a recruitment, it's a recruitment and outreach based position. So it's very similar in the vein of what I used to be doing. But it's, there's a bigger element of communications, and more print and online communications than I've ever had before. And I was nervous going into it. Because I don't have that much experience. I had the public speaking communication side of things in that that level marketing, but I have in this job, I went in saying, This is not my strong suit. But I'm a good learner, if you give me the opportunity, I'm happy to. And I'm excited to get to learn web design. And I'm excited to open my portfolio with social media management or with whatever you gave me print materials, like there, there was a list of opportunities. And, and so they decided to hire me because of my music background. And so my the recruitment background, and I was so grateful. And that has been the cool thing, because this year has taught me, I love designing websites, I had no idea. It's creative, it's editing, it's it's layouts and pictures and all. I had no idea that this was something I would really enjoy. And I'm loving it. So

Jonathan Collaton:

That's awesome. And so that brings brings you to where we are now. Exactly. And so you are you're now doing recruitment, working with music.

Carissa:

Mm hmm.

Jonathan Collaton:

Not a marine biologist.

Carissa:

No.

Jonathan Collaton:

But a lot of good decisions along the way have led you to be here.

Carissa:

Absolutely. I don't regret any of my job choices. From that perspective, every day, even like, from my education as well. Like everything has taught me some cool skills. I remember when students said but you studied music, we do not. You don't use that. I said oh I oh, I do. I would give assembly presentations to you know, hundred kids, or 100 students. I'm standing on stage. My fabulous stage presence. You know, I learned that as a musician how to own your space, how to connect with an audience how to convey something simply by one word or facial expressions. You know, my time management a lot of juggling between rehearsing And how to practice and develop skills or something, those are all things. I'm so grateful I learned as a musician. And then I also got to study what I love. I love music, I got to study something I actually really enjoyed. So it you know, those I loved my education, I loved the things that have kind of brought me to where I am today. And you just keep kind of adding things. And I mean, this generation, we're going to see job and career changes, you know, five and 10 times I say this to students all the time. You know, it used to be, you know, even a couple generations ago, you had one or two careers, and I'm not talking jobs, one or two careers. Oh, yeah. In your life. Now, it's five to eight to sometimes 10, depending on who you're talking to and what industries. I'm in my second one, you know, and I can tell you, I have no idea how many more will come my way.

Jonathan Collaton:

I think a great example of your point of, you know, other people not changing careers, is that we are recording this in the conference room of my dad's office. And he's been in the insurance industry since he was 20 years old. And he's still doing it right now.

Carissa:

Yeah.

Jonathan Collaton:

yeah. So yeah, you've been able to put it all together. And I really just want to say thank you for for being the first one to come and do my new podcast. And, you know, there's still really good weather outside so why don't we just end it here, and let's go get a drink.

Carissa:

Awesome.

Jonathan Collaton:

All right. So that was Carissa's interview. And I don't know about you. But it was definitely interesting to me. Of course, I know. Carissa so it was just filling in some gaps for me. But I think we did a pretty good job of telling the story of her in high school all the way up until now and all the decisions that influenced her. One of the things that I want to try and do at the end of every episode is have a little bit of a sort of reflection or follow up. And after I edit the episode, I start to think about the things that I heard that person say and see if there were any common themes. And I did find a couple of those with Clarissa. In fact, I remember during the interview, actually making some notes and writing these things down thinking that a couple days later, I wanted to follow up with her and see if she saw the same themes, the same themes that I did. And the first of those was that Chris gave herself a lot of leeway in situations where she didn't feel she was ready to make a specific jump, the jump to university, for example, or then the jump to Teachers College, and two separate occasions when she was working as a recruiter and different opportunities came up. chrissa just trusted how she felt. And she didn't take a job because she thought it was what she was supposed to do. Because it was what she originally had imagined was maybe the next step in her career progression. She's not a teacher right now, because she just didn't think it was the right time when those opportunities popped up. And I have a suspicion that that's a little bit unique. I think a lot of us look at the positions that we think we're supposed to be in and try to get those jobs because it just seems like it's the next fit. Even if it's something that in the back of our heads, we know maybe we don't actually want right now. And the other thing I asked Chris about was travel and we talked a bit about travel specifically because her job entailed travel as a traveling recruiter. But Chris and I, one of our biggest hobbies for both of us is international travel and visiting places around the world. And something I called her about and asked her was, Did she ever take or not take a job opportunity because she thought it would impact her ability to travel either in a positive or a negative way. And I asked that, because I actually had something like that where I took a job Something related to Chris's interview, but not related to what she had to say that I wanted to mention is that you opportunity because it was going to give me the opportunity to do might have noticed that at the beginning, I asked her to introduce how we knew each other. And then I totally forgot some traveling that I wanted to do. So when I asked her that she that she did that. And I introduced how we knew each other in my introduction. And I could edit that out but I'm not said it was actually the Shad Valley job that turned her into going to because this proves that podcasting is a journey and this is only episode one. And I can make mistakes now. And maybe the traveler that she is now because all of a sudden after a year from now listen to this episode and think I'm better than I was back then. That brings us pretty much to the end today. And there's just that trying to book hotels and flights and a whole itinerary two things I want to ask you to do. I want this podcast to have a strong launch. And one of the ways that that can happen is if people leave reviews and subscribe or follow the podcast for a trip wasn't all that intimidating when she had done on whatever app that you might be listening to it on. So I would really appreciate it if you just take a minute to rate it for work for so long. And I thought that was a bit of an this podcast if it was something you really enjoyed. And if you follow or subscribe to the podcast, you'll get notified interesting thing for her to say, because I don't think it's next week when episode three comes out, because two is coming out at the same time as this one. If you have any feedback specifically for me or about the all that often that what you do in your job influences your show or any thoughts you had based on what you heard Clarissa say shoot me an email at careercrossroadspod@gmail.com personal life and gives you a whole new hobby. So that to me and let's chat about it. I hope you enjoyed this episode and want to go check out episode number two. And remember that no matter where your career path has led to, you might as well was kind out of left field. enjoy the ride.